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By Garikayi Mushambadope
Dumiso Dabengwa (DD) was one of those illustrious sons of the soil who gave their lives to the liberation of the country and also took part in the post-independence administration. The late national hero had the unique position of having fought for the country, arrested and detained during the early 1980s and later became the Home Affairs Minister. DD was quiet, considered, composed and wore an aura of a statesman. He felt a sense of achievement and betrayal at the same time.

It was during my discussion with the current President E.D. Mnangagwa in August 2008, at Redcliff Hotel, when I raised the issue of Gukurahundi and why his name was linked to it. ED responded in full and asked me if I had met people like DD who were in a better position to answer a lot of the allegations that happened. Indeed, DD was on my schedule and when I called him and introduced the subject he gladly agreed to meet. My approach in all discussions was no-holds-barred.

We met at Holiday Inn Bulawayo in June 2009 and the following is part of the abridged transcript from close to six hours of recorded discussion with “the Black Russian”. It touches on his thoughts about Zimbabwe and the key events like the war, Gukurahundi, succession in Zanu-PF and his revival of ZAPU.

GM: Cde Dabengwa, can you start by painting a picture of the time you joined the nationalist politics, struggle for independence and freedom, addressing pertinent questions like why, when and how you became involved.

DD: The colonial situation was very difficult, in fact for those who didn’t experience segregation they can’t just picture it.  Whites had created a system that feeds on the majority with most benefits meant for them.  Education for the majority was controlled and only a few would progress to secondary school. Most people completed primary education only.  The number of schools were few and far between. Health facilities were non-existent especially for the majority in rural areas. Property rights were meant only for white people. Black people were put in Tribal Trust Lands . . . tribal meaning they deliberately divided the black majority based on the white man’s interpretation and skewed understanding of the tribes. Some of the problems we have today are a direct result of those policies.

I joined politics at a very young age and proceeded to war. Our generation was much more focused and courageous than the current one. Identifying the evils of colonialism when your own humanity as a people had been destroyed by a combination of a meticulously calculated religiosity and civilisation was not easy. It was easy to see the whites as superior through strategies deployed in education and national administration. The society had been structured into classes; with the whites at the top, Indian and Coloureds in the middle and the majority indigenous people at the bottom.  What this meant was that the middle occupiers supported the status quo as they saw themselves as superior to the majority.  This feelings still exists in some people’s minds.

The worst policy though was the divide and rule tactics through tribal affiliations used to further divide and alienate the black majority. The misunderstandings and suspicion between Shona and Ndebele was basically created by the whites. It’s very unfortunate that independent Zimbabwe had kept those barriers which meant that amongst blacks there is division.

GM: How could the division have been resolved in your view?

DD: By changing the school curriculum to focus on Zimbabwe and not on regions (tribal).  Trying to do it now will be seen as political gimmickry.

Ethnic and tribal divisions reared their  ugly face during the liberation war when we were based outside especially in Zanu. I believe that (Herbert)Chitepo died because of this curse.

GM: What about the confession from Rhodesian CIO that they killed Chitepo rather than Zanu?

DD: The Rhodesian CIO managed to penetrate ZANU because of the divisions. They gave room to the enemy, they made it easy.

Approaching independence (Gen Josiah) Tongogara also got killed in questionable circumstances.

GM: You think ZANU killed him?

DD: I believe so.  During the Lancaster House conference General Tongo, had told me he favoured the late Father Zimbabwe to be the leader of the Patriotic Front during the 1980 elections.

GM: Is that so?  Who was there when he said that to you, I mean who amongst the current Zanla leaders was around when General Tongo told you that?

DD: I can’t recall.

GM: But was it not naïve on the part of General Tongogara (such a seasoned Commander) to pronounce such a statement . . . to be that reckless.

DD: Tongogara was a straight talking, imposing man.  He had authority and was very clear.

GM: I find that weird because Tongogara’s Zanla forces on the ground were vehemently against Nkomo’s approach.  They used to say so during pungwes in the 1970s.

DD: What do you mean?

GM: Zanla forces used to hold political sessions with local people (povo) wherever they operated and during their addresses they were very clear that Nkomo was selling out to Ian Smith, working against the liberation struggle.  One incident they quoted was the meeting that took place aboard the train on the border with Zambia.  ZANU was not present, were they?

DD: I am not aware of that. That meeting was called for by Kenneth Kaunda and am not privy to why ZANU wasn’t involved.

GM: Okay, looking back to Independence Day in 1980 describe to me your emotions and what went through your mind on that day?

DD: The 18th April 1980 was a great day for all Zimbabweans especially those of us who had left the country to fight for liberation.  It’s difficult to put in words but you also had moments to think of friends who couldn’t make it                  . . .  but it was an unbelievable feeling to see the flag of Zimbabwe.  The speech that President Mugabe gave was the highlight because it brought a sense of togetherness to all.

GM: How difficult was it to step into the shoes of the white administrators at independence?  What do you think were the expectations of the white community — and the state of the economy left behind?

DD:  It was a challenge that all revolutionaries were prepared for. You know most of our people didn’t have administration expertise or experience and for that we needed to convince the white Zimbabweans that the country belonged to them as well.  The expectations of the new administration were to quickly bring equality for all before the law, educate the people and provide social services and health. You may not be aware that access to such things as education and health was for a privileged few. Managing people’s expectations was important because sometimes during the war we had wild expectations. The problem, though, was Rhodesia was broke from its war effort.

GM: What was your take on the policy of reconciliation promulgated by President Mugabe? Was it a tactic for survival or genuine desire to co-operate with the whites in a new Zimbabwe? Furthermore, 28 years into independence has the policy been a success and subsequent comment on the issue of racial (dis)harmony in Zimbabwe today.

DD: I think the President was genuine and very tactful.  I don’t think it was for survival as you put it, but a desire to unite the people and incorporate the whites who had the capacity in administration. Remember, we were fighting and killing each a few months before that. There was suspicion and distrust amongst the races and it needed careful handling. The whole world was watching as well.  When we started mixing with them you could sense that the situation was tense but over time that cleared. On the issue of racial (dis)harmony, I think there was no success on integration of the two peoples. From that you could say the policy was received differently by the two races?

GM: What do you mean?

DD: The majority of Zimbabweans accepted the white community but it took too long for the whites to accept equality.  You must bear in mind that they had been conditioned for more than 100 years to be superior, and you wouldn’t expect them to accept equality just like that. Racism is difficult to eradicate as you have experienced yourself in the Diaspora.  I don’t even know if there is harmony now.

GM: Going back to the Patriotic Front were there any different ideologies between ZAPU and ZANU and in turn ZIPRA and ZANLA?

DD: On the political level there was no difference in ideology, we were all leaning towards socialism.  Naturally, because we were supported by socialist countries: USSR, China and others.  With the regards to the military wings ZIPRA and ZANLA, I can speak with authority that ZIPRA had superior training in comparison to ZANLA.  ZIPRA also trained in regular/conventional warfare. The USSR gave us superior weapons like SAM 7 missiles.

GM: But why was a guerrilla army spending time training in conventional warfare instead of guerrilla warfare?

DD: We didn’t think Ian Smith would succumb to guerrilla tactics only, so we decided to take the fight to his forces including fighting in urban areas.  This included the downing of the two Rhodesian Viscounts by Zipra forces.  You know Smith was being strengthened all the time by the South African army, mercenaries and they had successful ly copied guerrilla tactics in the form of the Selous Scouts.

GM: A few years after the historic independence celebrations the former allies in the struggle for independence were at each other’s throat?

DD: It’s a painful episode both at personal and national level . . . betrayal by colleagues. There is a lot of discourse and fabrication surrounding that period and I would like you to put this on record.

GM: Zimbabweans are divided and not really aware of the causes of this sad chapter in history of the country!  Do you mind taking me through what happened and in your answer please highlight the pertinent accusations of arms caches, the tribal divisions, vengeful disposition of the Rhodesian elements and where you were when they arrested you? And who arrested you?

DD: Yes, like I said let’s have it on record.  It’s going to be emotional.  During the important planning period of drafting the warring parties freedom fighters (ZIPRA and ZANLA) on one end and Ian Smith’s Rhodesian forces unsavoury things happened.

To start with, there is a lot of blame being put on the then ZANU and people are saying this was a tribal-engineered thing.  That’s rubbish and that can only be said by people ignorant of what was taking place.

When the freedom fighters were in assembly points, the Rhodesians hatched a sinister plan based on creating divisions and fissures between ZIPRA and ZANLA.  They did this by approaching ZIPRA commanders in strategically selected assembly points and lied to them that the new “Shona” Government was planning to exterminate them.

GM: Who exactly were these Rhodesians, can you be specific?

DD: I am coming to that . . . during the nascent years of our independence the security apparatus; Central Intelligence Organisation (CIO) was predominantly white. And they had not repented. So these CIO officers convinced the commanders at assembly points to hide weapons in preparation for the so-called eventuality.  In doing so they labelled the senior commanders like me and Lookout Masuku as having sold out to the Government.  They presented it as if the commanders and their forces were on their own.  So indeed they hid weapons conniving with the white CIOs.  What the ZIPRA commanders didn’t know was that the CIOs were taking the information to authorities in Harare. When the CIO had enough “evidence” they told Ken Flower (their boss) and (army general)Peter Walls.  I don’t know whether it Flower and Walls plan in the first place.

What I know is that Ken Flower and Peter Walls took it to the then Prime Minister, Mugabe.  They had carefully presented it as our plan . . . Masuku and I.

GM: Really . . . and what did the Prime Minister do?

DD: I have to respect President Mugabe on his actions though. He called me and Masuku to his offices before bringing in Flower and Walls. When they got there Mugabe asked them to repeat their story.

Ken Flower as the head of CIO went on to give graphic illustration of what was happening at the assembly points.  This was a complete shock to me and Masuku.

After Flower’s presentation supported by Peter Walls, I asked Mugabe if he believed the story.  The Prime Minister didn’t say anything but just laughed sarcastically.

Immediately after that the meeting ended.  A few days later the story was splashed in all newspapers including the arms caches.

The thing is we never believed that the ZIPRA commanders at assembly points would betray us like that.

The Government started arresting members of ZAPU NEC and ZIPRA commanders and I immediately went into hiding. The police and CIO were deployed to hunt for us and after a week I went home for change of clothes and they arrested me.

I was arrested by white CIO officers and bundled into a Land Rover. What they said next is what gave the game away to me.

GM: What did they say?

DD: They greeted me saying “Hello Black Russian, you thought you could get away with murder?  When you butchered innocent civilians by bringing down the two Viscounts you thought you won.  We have been seeking revenge for that and you are going to go down at the hands of your fellow comrades”.

As you know, we were charged for treason but Advocate (Adrian de Bourbon) did a great job by destroying the prosecution case.

GM: Who were the prosecution star witnesses?

DD: The ZIPRA assembly points commanders who had hidden the weapons were the witnesses supporting the CIO version that we were involved and that we gave them the order to hide arms.

However, the case collapsed anyway.  But we were detained at the pleasure of the Prime Minister and State.

GM: So where are these ZIPRA commanders now?  And what do they say to you now?

DD: There are there, here in Bulawayo.  I will give you their names so you can substantiate this discussion with their input.  When we meet they just say we are sorry, I guess they were tricked and they really believed their lives were in danger.  But they know the truth.

GM: Why has this not been in the public domain?

DD: I don’t know.  I have always been here and ready to talk but no one has approached me.  It’s very important that we document the truth lest people with different motives will spin the events for their own political expediency.

GM: You were detained for five years and came out to be the Minister of Home Affairs.  Can you please take me through that episode?

DD: Negotiations between ZAPU and ZANU were going on for as long as the disturbances themselves. There was a period when the whole issue was toxic and the Government then appeared to believe the CIOs. You know some of the weapons uncovered also belonged to Umkonto we Siswe (the African National Congress military wing), which complicated the whole issue.

GM: How did it complicate the issue?

DD: When those weapons we hidden the Prime Minister was not aware, so when we tried to explain it was seen as a convenient excuse.

GM: Are you telling me that ZIPRA and Umkhonto we Sizwe did not notify an elected Prime Minister of the arms?  And you expected the Prime Minister to accept your argument that they were meant for MK cadres?

DD: That’s why I said it complicated the issue. You have to remember that Mugabe had come out and said he wasn’t going to have any MK bases in Zimbabwe as a staging post to destabilise South Africa.

GM: What about the dissidents’ actions?

DD: Ooh, yea, that could also have contributed to the hardliners who didn’t want peace. There were quite a few of them in both parties.

GM: Many reports of the time including CIA and MI5 gave an estimate of between 1 800 and 2 000 deaths from the Gukurahundi era.  But today we hear of 20 000.  I appreciate it could be difficult to know or to be exact but what is your guestimate?

DD: People died but without really opening up the cases and do the counting it’s very difficult to come up with a guestimate. The Government should be open and responsible enough to play a leading role in solving this issue.  There is no other way for them . . . as the Government of the day they were/are responsible for what happened and what will happen.  The Government is leaving room for people with different motives to take advantage of a very painful part of our history.

GM: What part did you specifically play?

DD: We were kept abreast of all the discussions and I spoke with the commanders at Gwaai Assembly Point. I think Mugabe and (Joshua) Nkomo, especially uMdala, wanted peace and development.  And we have to pay tribute to former president Canaan Banana for playing the intermediary role.

GM: The disturbances were extinguished by the Unity Accord of December 1987 and you became one of the leaders from ZAPU (PF) to join the Government.  How genuine do you think both parties were when they appended their signatures?

DD: I think the leaders were genuine.  There was more that united ZAPU and ZANU than divided them, so in the end it was the right thing to do. Naturally the hardliners were not happy but the majority view prevailed. The country can’t develop when you have resources diverted to fight a war.

GM: Please try to situate for me why ZAPU agreed to a new party name as Zanu-PF during the unity talks that led to the end of Gukurahundi. Wouldn’t it have been better to go back to the Patriotic Front?

DD: There were others who said such during the negotiations but Mugabe and his team remained obdurate.  They argued that it would be a betrayal of the people who voted their party with such a majority in 1985. It looks so unfair now which explains why a lot of people think ZAPU was just swallowed.  If we had gone back to the Patriotic Front more people would have accepted the Unity Accord as permanent.  As it is               . . .  it appears like . . .

GM: You later became the Minister of Home Affairs following the Unity Accord; is that right?  Did you see the Chihambakwe Report and what does it say on this issue?

DD: Yes, I was. But I didn’t get the opportunity to read the report. The leaders had buried their differences and we were concentrating on developmental issues. I agree should have taken time to read it.

GM: You have been the chairperson of Zambezi Water Project, what have been the progress and challenges so far?

DD: The Zambezi Water Project is complicated and not as easy as people think. You must understand that the Zambezi River is shared amongst six countries and you have to consult all. We have made great progress with reaching agreements with other countries but our main challenge now is accessing funding. Sanctions have been an impediment.

GM: Turning to the current inclusive Goverment discussion with the MDCs, it is not without precedent. ZANU-PF has accommodated opposition figures before but what lessons, if any, should the country learn from this one?  What are your views on the whole arrangement?

DD: The voters . . . eeh electorate chose a hung Parliament and it’s only proper that all the parties work together. The country needed this considering the economic challenges we are experiencing. The lessons we learnt from the 1980s is that we need transparency and a willingness to accept criticism. What we have are two parties from completely different backgrounds and they have to compromise for the good of the country.  My view is that, handled properly, this can be a new beginning for our country.  It’s the first time that such protagonists will be seated in the same Cabinet taking decisions that are supposed to benefit the people. It has to work.

GM: Do you think sanctions will be relaxed?

DD: No, I don’t think so. Sanctions were specifically placed on Zimbabwe for taking the land back unless, of course, the Government gives the whites the land.  I don’t see any relaxation of the sanctions pressure.  To the contrary, I think they will apply more.  The only positive aspect is that MDC will appreciate how sanctions are affecting the economy.  But we will have to see . . .

GM: Do you think Zimbabwe would have been different if ZAPU had won the elections in 1980? If so how?

DD: It’s difficult to tell as any majority government would have taken the painful decisions of expanding social services, healthcare, education and bring equality to all.  What I would say is that ZAPU had a business friendly approach compared to ZANU and from that angle we could have done things differently.

GM: What is it that you would have done differently?

DD: I don’t think it was helpful to talk about one-party state and socialism in a predominantly capitalist country.  Sometimes you need to be patient, taking small steps towards the big picture.  Populist pronouncements are not always good for business especially investors.

GM: Take me back again to the time when you were in Government.  Did you (as a party or individuals) discuss the issue of succession?  President Mugabe has been there for a long time.

DD: Yes, we did.  Let me tell you something that actually took place.  In 2003, Zvinavashe, Rex Nhongo . . . Mujuru and myself went to see President Mugabe and we asked him about succession.

GM: What exactly did you say to him?

DD: We said . . . “President you have given your time and the country is grateful. We think it is time that you give or prepare to hand over to someone who can take the country to another level”.  The President had done a brilliant job since independence and if he had taken our advice seriously he wouldn’t be suffering like this today.

GM: You are saying “we” but who was actually doing the talking?

DD: We all contributed but the first to speak was General Mujuru . . . he broke the ice, so to speak.  Zvinavashe and I came in and emphasised on a few points.

GM: So, what was his response?

DD: He actually agreed with us and said he would make way. He talked about having free time to write his memoirs and give advice to the successor.

GM: When you deliberated on this succession before going to meet him did you have anyone in mind?

DD: No, we didn’t.  Our expectations were that the party will open the race for everyone to contest democratically.  To Mugabe’s credit after our meeting with him he came out and told the country that was his last term in office. We do not know what then happened in the background for him to change his mind later on. I have a feeling that some in ZANU-PF leaned on him and he started seeing it as an attempt to push him out. The people in the army and security agents might have done that.

GM: Why would they do that?

DD: For their own selfish interests …

GM: Just before last year’s elections you left ZANU-PF and threw your weight behind Simba Makoni, why?

DD: This was a continuation of the discussion we had with Mugabe.  Some of us felt he should have given way to others. A number of big guns within ZANU-PF had given their word that they would come and join Simba Makoni but they developed cold feet at the last minute. They are cowards.

GM: Who are the big guns?

DD: I know for certain that Mujuru wanted to leave and join Mavambo                       . . . others might have been sitting on the fence.

GM: Earlier on you said the Unity Accord was the right thing to ensure peace and development but today you are reviving ZAPU.   Is that not a contradiction on your part? Are you not betraying Father Zimbabwe?

DD: I don’t see it that way. I believe that Mugabe and others have betrayed what was agreed on and the expectations of that Unity Accord. Looking back, you get the sense that the Unity Accord was taken as a consolidation of power. Most of the ZANU-PF leaders, especially from Matabeleland, have not been elected by the people. They are just being chosen by Mugabe, so who are they representing?  We are not betraying Umdala Nkomo by reviving ZAPU but we seek to carry forward his vision.

GM: What do you aim to achieve by reviving ZAPU and what support does your organisation have regionally and nationally?

DD;  Multi-party democracy is what we fought for. We will be working to achieve true economic empowerment for the people, choice, equitable distribution of wealth and development for all. I believe that ZAPU has a lot of supporters. We have been visiting all the provinces, revisiting the old ZAPU structures and we have received a lot of encouragement. Remember ZAPU was far much bigger and well organised than ZANU.

GM: Cde Dabengwa it has been very interesting talking to you, do you have any parting shots?

DD: I think you are doing a great job in documenting the history of our country.  My children have been asking me to write my memoirs and I didn’t know where or how to start.  From this discussion I have an idea and am going to ask you for a favour …When you are done with your work please come back and help me write my memoirs.